Discussion:
A reverse thermocline,any ideas about the physics behind it
(too old to reply)
dechucka
2008-08-18 23:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Next door neighbour stupidly dropped his car keys into his farm dam while
out on his kayak. Knowing I was a diver he asked if I could try and find
them. OK we are 670m but I have dived at higher altitudes and the dam was
only 7-8ms deep so no problems.

Interestingly the water temp at the surface was about 5C and than I hit a
distinct thermocline at 3ms and the temp was 8C. Surely even with not much
wind the colder heavier water should sink below the warmer water. The dam in
question is quite large probably 1/2 a hectare and has got good inflow from
a small stream. Wondered how the warm water could sit on the bottom even
knowing that Sydney's bad smog is caused by an inversion layer where cold
air traps the warm air and pollution in the basin.

Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen


PS I soon got out of the water without his keys, far to bloody cold and he
can afford some new ones. Only had a 5mm Farmer John with hood
Greg Mossman
2008-08-19 01:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
dechucka
2008-08-19 01:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?

and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the Simpson's
so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
dechucka
2008-08-19 01:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the Simpson's
so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water. That shits me off
but not as much as the european ones with the plate thingy at the back so
you can give it a good look before you flush it.
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
2008-08-19 16:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
Post by dechucka
That shits me off but not as much as the european ones with the plate
thingy at the back so you can give it a good look before you flush it.
That speaks for itself.
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward

Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Don
2008-08-19 23:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
He's got a reasonable point here, Popeye -- a lot of the
toilets in the US seem to use far too much water - yeah
it may mean that they look cleaner more quickly, BUT when
looked at from the point of view of someone living on one
of the dryest continents on Earth, it looks a lot like a
waste of water.

-Don
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
That shits me off but not as much as the european ones with the
plate thingy at the back so you can give it a good look before you
flush it.
That speaks for itself.
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
2008-08-19 23:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
He's got a reasonable point here, Popeye -- a lot of the
toilets in the US seem to use far too much water - yeah
it may mean that they look cleaner more quickly, BUT when
looked at from the point of view of someone living on one
of the dryest continents on Earth, it looks a lot like a
waste of water.
It's just another of his thousand AA posts.

My brother and I are discussing how many hundreds of thousands of dollars
it will cost to drain excess water from his ranch.

STUPID Dave can dig a two-holer behind his house and cut that water use
altogether.

I'll stick with fast and clean.
Post by Don
-Don
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
That shits me off but not as much as the european ones with the
plate thingy at the back so you can give it a good look before you
flush it.
That speaks for itself.
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward

Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
dechucka
2008-08-20 21:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by Don
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
He's got a reasonable point here, Popeye -- a lot of the
toilets in the US seem to use far too much water - yeah
it may mean that they look cleaner more quickly, BUT when
looked at from the point of view of someone living on one
of the dryest continents on Earth, it looks a lot like a
waste of water.
It's just another of his thousand AA posts.
My brother and I are discussing how many hundreds of thousands of dollars
it will cost to drain excess water from his ranch.
STUPID Dave can dig a two-holer behind his house and cut that water use
altogether.
I'll stick with fast and clean.
we have a septic tank. Hey that reminds me of you :=)
Dennis (Icarus)
2008-08-20 02:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
He's got a reasonable point here, Popeye -- a lot of the
toilets in the US seem to use far too much water - yeah
it may mean that they look cleaner more quickly, BUT when
looked at from the point of view of someone living on one
of the dryest continents on Earth, it looks a lot like a
waste of water.
It gets treated and reused.

Dennis
dechucka
2008-08-20 04:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
no cunts next you ignorant PIG
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
That shits me off but not as much as the european ones with the plate
thingy at the back so you can give it a good look before you flush it.
That speaks for itself.
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward
Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
2008-08-20 09:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
no cunts next you ignorant PIG
In English, please, STUPID Dave?
Post by dechucka
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
That shits me off but not as much as the european ones with the plate
thingy at the back so you can give it a good look before you flush it.
That speaks for itself.
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward
Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward

Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
dechucka
2008-08-20 20:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
no cunts next you ignorant PIG
In English, please, STUPID Dave?
no cunts next you ignorant PIG
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
2008-08-21 13:36:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Post by dechucka
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
+You're in Australia, so the thermoclines are naturally upside down?
and the water in the toilet runs backward> I have seen it on the
Simpson's so it must be true ( along with the killer Koalas )
ps why in America are the toilet bowls so full of water.
Because we're not pigs?
no cunts next you ignorant PIG
In English, please, STUPID Dave?
no cunts next you ignorant PIG
Take your medications, dude.

Got that two holer dug yet?
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward

Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Joerg Hahn
2008-08-19 10:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi dechuka,
Post by dechucka
Interestingly the water temp at the surface was about 5C and than I hit a
distinct thermocline at 3ms and the temp was 8C.
Hmmm, temperature meter is misaligned?

If you would have mesured 2C and 4C there would be the easy
explanation of the Abnormity of Water, having the max
density at 4C, which lead to invers layers in water and lets
ice swim.

That density thingi you have also with different solutions
of salt in water which even can override the effects of
temperature to the layers.

Joerg
Lee Bell
2008-08-19 11:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Interestingly the water temp at the surface was about 5C and than I hit a
distinct thermocline at 3ms and the temp was 8C.
Wind chill of the surface water?
Heat retention of deeper water as above water temperature cools near surface
water?
Spring feeding warmer water below surface?
Other source of warm water such as an electrical generating plant?

Lee
Bryan Heit
2008-08-19 14:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Next door neighbour stupidly dropped his car keys into his farm dam while
out on his kayak. Knowing I was a diver he asked if I could try and find
them. OK we are 670m but I have dived at higher altitudes and the dam was
only 7-8ms deep so no problems.
Interestingly the water temp at the surface was about 5C and than I hit a
distinct thermocline at 3ms and the temp was 8C. Surely even with not much
wind the colder heavier water should sink below the warmer water. The dam in
question is quite large probably 1/2 a hectare and has got good inflow from
a small stream. Wondered how the warm water could sit on the bottom even
knowing that Sydney's bad smog is caused by an inversion layer where cold
air traps the warm air and pollution in the basin.
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
PS I soon got out of the water without his keys, far to bloody cold and he
can afford some new ones. Only had a 5mm Farmer John with hood
Most likely explanation is that the lake was undergoing a turnover.
Here in the north this usually occurs in the spring and fall, and it
plays a central role in the ecology of most lakes.

Basically, what happens is over the summer you get a layer of warmer
water over the layer of colder water. By the end of summer this warm
layer tends to be quite thick. When fall comes (or a cold front, etc)
the upper layers of water cool, faster then they sink. This creates a
layer of colder water at the surface. Eventually the sinking of this
cold water will mix the whole lake, but for brief periods you can have
a colder surface than the layer immediately underneath it.

Bryan
Greg Mossman
2008-08-19 14:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bryan Heit
Most likely explanation is that the lake was undergoing a turnover.
Here in the north this usually occurs in the spring and fall, and it
plays a central role in the ecology of most lakes.
Basically, what happens is over the summer you get a layer of warmer
water over the layer of colder water.  By the end of summer this warm
layer tends to be quite thick.  When fall comes (or a cold front, etc)
the upper layers of water cool, faster then they sink.  This creates a
layer of colder water at the surface.  Eventually the sinking of this
cold water will mix the whole lake, but for brief periods you can have
a colder surface than the layer immediately underneath it.
Sure, in Canada maybe, but how cold does it get in Australia?
Bryan Heit
2008-08-19 15:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by Bryan Heit
Most likely explanation is that the lake was undergoing a turnover.
Here in the north this usually occurs in the spring and fall, and it
plays a central role in the ecology of most lakes.
Basically, what happens is over the summer you get a layer of warmer
water over the layer of colder water.  By the end of summer this warm
layer tends to be quite thick.  When fall comes (or a cold front, etc)
the upper layers of water cool, faster then they sink.  This creates a
layer of colder water at the surface.  Eventually the sinking of this
cold water will mix the whole lake, but for brief periods you can have
a colder surface than the layer immediately underneath it.
Sure, in Canada maybe, but how cold does it get in Australia?
Doesn't matter how cold it gets; so long as the air temp is lower than
the water temp this can happen.

Bryan
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
2008-08-19 16:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Next door neighbour stupidly dropped his car keys into his farm dam while
out on his kayak. Knowing I was a diver he asked if I could try and find
them. OK we are 670m but I have dived at higher altitudes and the dam was
only 7-8ms deep so no problems.
Interestingly the water temp at the surface was about 5C and than I hit a
distinct thermocline at 3ms and the temp was 8C. Surely even with not much
wind the colder heavier water should sink below the warmer water. The dam
in question is quite large probably 1/2 a hectare and has got good inflow
from a small stream. Wondered how the warm water could sit on the bottom
even knowing that Sydney's bad smog is caused by an inversion layer where
cold air traps the warm air and pollution in the basin.
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
PS I soon got out of the water without his keys, far to bloody cold and he
can afford some new ones. Only had a 5mm Farmer John with hood
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward

Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick
2008-08-19 16:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by dechucka
Next door neighbour stupidly dropped his car keys into his farm dam while
out on his kayak. Knowing I was a diver he asked if I could try and find
them. OK we are 670m but I have dived at higher altitudes and the dam was
only 7-8ms deep so no problems.
Interestingly the water temp at the surface was about 5C and than I hit a
distinct thermocline at 3ms and the temp was 8C. Surely even with not much
wind the colder heavier water should sink below the warmer water. The dam
in question is quite large probably 1/2 a hectare and has got good inflow
from a small stream. Wondered how the warm water could sit on the bottom
even knowing that Sydney's bad smog is caused by an inversion layer where
cold air traps the warm air and pollution in the basin.
Anybody else experienced this and any theories on why it can happen
PS I soon got out of the water without his keys, far to bloody cold and he
can afford some new ones. Only had a 5mm Farmer John with hood
I didn't remember the temperatures, but I've experienced reverse
thermoclines a handful of times off West Palm Beach.

I figured it was just current.
--
"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward

Popeye
"Best thing for him, really. His therapy
was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
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