PADI Underwater Child Molester Specialty Course?

[Scuba News]

CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class

http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

[Lee Bell]

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Lee

[Nick Phillips]

Post by Lee Bell

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.
Lee

Sorry Lee but I have to object to this (and I know you weren't voicing a
negative opinion on being gay). Although it's way off topic and I don't
want to get into a huge debate like those on rec.scuba, I have to mention
that there is no link whatsoever between being gay and child abuse. Most
abuse of boys is done by married / straight men. I know its very dull when
things get 'political' and I'll drop the subject now.

Nick
x

There are two secrets to success...
1. Never reveal everything you know.

[Lee Bell]

Post by Nick Phillips
Sorry Lee but I have to object to this (and I know you weren't voicing a
negative opinion on being gay). Although it's way off topic and I don't
want to get into a huge debate like those on rec.scuba, I have to mention
that there is no link whatsoever between being gay and child abuse. Most
abuse of boys is done by married / straight men. I know its very dull when
things get 'political' and I'll drop the subject now.

Thanks for sharing this. You are correct that I am not voicing a negative
opinion about being gay. I am completely straight, but also completely
certain that others have just as much right to their own sexual preferences
as I do to mine. Whether this person was gay or not, the reported event is
exactly the kind of thing the BSA used in their campaign to exclude gay
people from the organization. The risk they described matches the event
that occurred. Gay or straight, the damage is probably done.

I apologize to everyone subjected to this cross posting. I did not notice
the source of the original posting before I responded. Like Nick, I have no
desire in promoting an extended discussion on this subject and, in
particular don't wish to participate in one across mutiple groups. This
will be my last cross posting on this subject . . . unless, of course,
somebody gets me fired up.

Lee
Eagle Scout. Proud to have been part of Scouting, ashamed at the way
Scouting is treating others based on the most personal of differences.
--
The latest survey shows that 3 out of 4
people make up 75% of the population.
- -

Post by Nick Phillips

Post by Lee Bell

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.
Lee

Sorry Lee but I have to object to this (and I know you weren't voicing a
negative opinion on being gay). Although it's way off topic and I don't
want to get into a huge debate like those on rec.scuba, I have to mention
that there is no link whatsoever between being gay and child abuse. Most
abuse of boys is done by married / straight men. I know its very dull when
things get 'political' and I'll drop the subject now.
Nick
x
There are two secrets to success...
1. Never reveal everything you know.

[Greg Mossman]

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

["Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>]

"Greg Mossman" wrote ...

Post by Greg Mossman
If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have
been arrested, we'd have dealt with him
ourselves.

Oh, so you weren't a democrat back then...

[de Valois]

Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The Way to

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
been too ashamed and humiliated.

Which is what these predators count on.

Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[de Valois]

Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
a Scout camp.

Post by de Valois
Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The Way to

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Lee Willcox]

de Valois

I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old Scout".
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
a Scout camp.

Post by de Valois
Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The Way to

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Tricky]

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old Scout".
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

I suppose in Texas your children are used to being touched by
adults....usually your uncles.....

[Lee Willcox]

Nope, you "supposed" wrong, and we don't have any jerks like you. :-)

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old

Scout".

Post by Lee Willcox
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

I suppose in Texas your children are used to being touched by
adults....usually your uncles.....

[Tricky]

Post by Lee Willcox
Nope, you "supposed" wrong, and we don't have any jerks like you. :-)

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old

Scout".

Post by Lee Willcox
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

I suppose in Texas your children are used to being touched by
adults....usually your uncles.....

Firstly, please don't top post.

Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.

But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems that
is spreading across the globe?

[Lee Willcox]

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Nope, you "supposed" wrong, and we don't have any jerks like you. :-)

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old

Scout".

Post by Lee Willcox
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given

him

Post by Tricky
a

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

I suppose in Texas your children are used to being touched by
adults....usually your uncles.....

Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems that
is spreading across the globe?

Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.

I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

[Tricky]

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree with
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.

<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

[Alan Street]

In article <bkcon0$jqi$***@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, ***@nospam.yahoo.co.uk
says...

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree with
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

And he's not even a *real* Texan. He was born and raised in New England.

[Lee Willcox]

Post by Alan Street
says...

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree with
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

And he's not even a *real* Texan. He was born and raised in New England.

WrongO. I was born and raised in Vernon, Texas. Where did you get
the New England crap?

[Alan Street]

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Alan Street
says...

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree

with

Post by Alan Street

Post by Tricky
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

And he's not even a *real* Texan. He was born and raised in New England.

WrongO. I was born and raised in Vernon, Texas. Where did you get
the New England crap?

I was referring to Bush, not you (see the above quote about letting a Texan run
the country).

[Lee Willcox]

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree with
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

Ok at what point did I mention being beat by your father? (not me, you)
:-)
I fail to see where you got your "Therefore".
How does "pedophile" map to "child beating"?
I also said that MOST social disorders can be corrected.
Being a pedophile is not having a social disorder..
Twisting what I write does not change it.
???? Hummm are you sure you were reading my post ????

[Tricky]

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree

with

Post by Tricky
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

Ok at what point did I mention being beat by your father? (not me, you)
:-)
I fail to see where you got your "Therefore".
How does "pedophile" map to "child beating"?
I also said that MOST social disorders can be corrected.
Being a pedophile is not having a social disorder..
Twisting what I write does not change it.
???? Hummm are you sure you were reading my post ????

Your arguing that being a paedophile is not a social disorder?

What do you explain it as then? A chemical imbalance in the brain, like
schizophrenia? If that's the case, then your statement for 'the only good
peadophile is a dead one' should apply to anybody with a mental disorder.
Depression? Fuckit, shoot them, bullets are cheaper than prozac...etc etc.

Paedophilia has been proven to be linked with childhood experience, parental
abuse, and misconception about role modelling in the years before and after
puberty, amongst other things.

If that's not your argument, then please state how you view the disorder
known as paedophilia? Is it a result of social or parental conditioning, a
disorder / disease, or simply the work of the devil (ha ha!).

When you can define exactly what your arguing for, and back it up with
relevant fact, then please post back.

[de Valois]

Tricky left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:01:51 +0100 for The Way to clean

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.

Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree with
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>

Wow. Four hours until we reached "guns"...that must be slow.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Alan Street]

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky
Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems

that

Post by Tricky
is spreading across the globe?

Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.

Mandates top posting??? For newsgroups?

[Lee Willcox]

Post by Alan Street

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky
Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems

that

Post by Tricky
is spreading across the globe?

Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.

Mandates top posting??? For newsgroups?

Yes, we have our own newsgroup on our lan at work and that's
the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.

[Alan Street]

Post by Alan Street
says...

Post by Alan Street

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky
Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that

would

Post by Alan Street

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems

that

Post by Tricky
is spreading across the globe?

Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.

Mandates top posting??? For newsgroups?

Yes, we have our own newsgroup on our lan at work and that's
the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.

Interesting. Dumb, but interesting.

[Lee Willcox]

Post by Alan Street

Post by Alan Street
says...

Post by Alan Street

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky
Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that

would

Post by Alan Street

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Tricky
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems

that

Post by Tricky
is spreading across the globe?

Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.

Mandates top posting??? For newsgroups?

Yes, we have our own newsgroup on our lan at work and that's
the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.

Interesting. Dumb, but interesting.

Yep. I agree with the "dumb" part.
I suspect that upper managment does not know how to scoll
to the bottom of the screen on a post or email..
Or maybe it's the blond secretary's
It doesn't even rate an interesting, it's just dumb.

[Dan Bracuk]

"Lee Willcox" <***@willcoxwebs.com> entertained us with:
:Yes, we have our own newsgroup on our lan at work and that's
:the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
:and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.

What happens if you defy that edict?

Dan Bracuk
As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination.
The Best of Rec.Scuba
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/


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[Lee Bell]

You don't get to dive with the team . . . .oops, wrong thread.
--
The latest survey shows that 3 out of 4
people make up 75% of the population.
- -

Post by Dan Bracuk
:Yes, we have our own newsgroup on our lan at work and that's
:the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
:and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.
What happens if you defy that edict?
Dan Bracuk
As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've

got the inclination.

Post by Dan Bracuk
The Best of Rec.Scuba
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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["Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>]

"Dan Bracuk" wrote ...

Post by Dan Bracuk
What happens if you defy that edict?

You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?

[Lee Willcox]

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Dan Bracuk" wrote ...

Post by Dan Bracuk
What happens if you defy that edict?

You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?

The blond sectary down the hall sends you a email reminding you of the
rules.
She thinks that if you don't top post, you confuse the email.
I suspect that it confuses her and not the email :-)


I see idiots, and they don't know their idiots.

["Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>]

"Lee Willcox" wrote ...

Post by Lee Willcox
The blond sectary down the hall sends you a email
reminding you of the rules.
She thinks that if you don't top post, you confuse the email.
I suspect that it confuses her and not the email :-)

Well, mixing top posting, inline posting, and bottom posting in the same
message could be somewhat confusing... Personally, I prefer inline posting
with judicious clipping of comments other than what I'm replying to
directly... Of course, it also makes it much easier to take something out of
context... <evil-grin>

Post by Lee Willcox
I see idiots, and they don't know their idiots.

If you're going to say something like that, you really should spell it
correctly... Use "they're", not "their"... When one is criticizing others,
one must ensure that it can't be turned around upon them... <grin>

BTW, I agree with the spirit of your comment though...

[Lee Willcox]

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Lee Willcox" wrote ...

Post by Lee Willcox
The blond sectary down the hall sends you a email
reminding you of the rules.
She thinks that if you don't top post, you confuse the email.
I suspect that it confuses her and not the email :-)

Well, mixing top posting, inline posting, and bottom posting in the same
message could be somewhat confusing... Personally, I prefer inline posting
with judicious clipping of comments other than what I'm replying to
directly... Of course, it also makes it much easier to take something out of
context... <evil-grin>

Post by Lee Willcox
I see idiots, and they don't know their idiots.

If you're going to say something like that, you really should spell it
correctly... Use "they're", not "their"... When one is criticizing others,
one must ensure that it can't be turned around upon them... <grin>
BTW, I agree with the spirit of your comment though...

Yep that was a typo.
That's what happens when your over sixty
and type faster than you can think.

In spite of upper management,
have a good day anyway.

[Dan Bracuk]

"Lee Willcox" <***@willcoxwebs.com> entertained us with:
:I see idiots, and they don't know their idiots.

Whether or not they are idiots is a matter of opinion. They may have equally
uncomplimentary opinions of you.

Dan Bracuk
As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination.
The Best of Rec.Scuba
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/


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[Lee Bell]

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Dan Bracuk" wrote ...

Post by Dan Bracuk
What happens if you defy that edict?

You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?

Speaking of which, another worm virus hit yesterday. In the last 8 hours,
I've received more than 100 copies of the newest Microsoft security patch
plus a shitload of return messages indicating that outgoing messages to
people I don't know, weren't delivered. I've confirmed I'm not infected,
but it's 100% certain that one or more of those who have me in their address
book are.

Lee

["Old Goat" () (Old Goat C.I.D.)]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:10:40 GMT, "Lee Bell"

Post by Lee Bell

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Dan Bracuk" wrote ...

Post by Dan Bracuk
What happens if you defy that edict?

You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?

Speaking of which, another worm virus hit yesterday. In the last 8 hours,
I've received more than 100 copies of the newest Microsoft security patch
plus a shitload of return messages indicating that outgoing messages to
people I don't know, weren't delivered. I've confirmed I'm not infected,
but it's 100% certain that one or more of those who have me in their address
book are.
Lee

So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
through to the drives.

Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
SOB's making these virsues up.



Rick Simms

"To expect your government to save you
is to be a bystander in your own fate."

MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

["@" <""nitespark\"@">]

Post by "Old Goat" () (Old Goat C.I.D.)
So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
through to the drives.
Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
SOB's making these virsues up.
Rick Simms

Rick,
I got over 400 of them yesterday alone. The AV software and browser got
them all and it appears nothing got through.

I do take exception to your proposed punishment. Absolute lack of
consideration for the sharks.

Andy

["Old Goat" () (Old Goat C.I.D.)]

Post by "@" <""nitespark\"@">

Post by "Old Goat" () (Old Goat C.I.D.)
So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
through to the drives.
Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
SOB's making these virsues up.
Rick Simms

Rick,
I got over 400 of them yesterday alone. The AV software and browser got
them all and it appears nothing got through.
I do take exception to your proposed punishment. Absolute lack of
consideration for the sharks.
Andy

You're correct.

My apologies to the sharks.



Rick Simms

"To expect your government to save you
is to be a bystander in your own fate."

MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

[Alan Street]

In article <***@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>, wrote:

€On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:10:40 GMT, "Lee Bell"
€<***@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:
€
€>"Grumman-581" <***@DIE-SPAMMER-***@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
€>news:Bcuab.46997$***@twister.austin.rr.com...
€>> "Dan Bracuk" wrote ...
€>> > What happens if you defy that edict?
€>>
€>> You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?
€>
€>Speaking of which, another worm virus hit yesterday. In the last 8 hours,
€>I've received more than 100 copies of the newest Microsoft security patch
€>plus a shitload of return messages indicating that outgoing messages to
€>people I don't know, weren't delivered. I've confirmed I'm not infected,
€>but it's 100% certain that one or more of those who have me in their address
€>book are.
€>
€>Lee
€>
€
€So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
€the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
€Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
€running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
€through to the drives.
€
€Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
€SOB's making these virsues up.
€
€

Agreed, although it just occured to me that this sort of virus could be
used as an intelligence test of sorts. A savvy marketeer could develop
a program that returned the address of everyone gullible enough to
double click on the .exe file. They would then get a message that goes
something like this:

"By executing an application that only the most clueless wouldn't know
was a virus, you've identified yourself as a person too stupid to
operate a computer by yourself. To protect the on-line infrastructure
of the world from people like you, we've developed a special computer
system called WebTV. This system will allow you to surf the web and
exchange e-mail without giving you enough control to actually damage
anything. As a special offer, we've also identified a number of on-line
forums particularily suited to the needs and capabilities of our
special WebTV community. As a diver, we've bookmarked
www.scubaboard.com specially for you. Please disconnect your computer
from the internet now and start enjoying your new WebTV "Clueless
Drooler" (tm) service."

Alan

["Old Goat" (mustang5 ) (Old Goat C.I.D.)]

Post by Alan Street
€On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:10:40 GMT, "Lee Bell"
€
€>> "Dan Bracuk" wrote ...
€>> > What happens if you defy that edict?
€>>
€>> You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?
€>
€>Speaking of which, another worm virus hit yesterday. In the last 8 hours,
€>I've received more than 100 copies of the newest Microsoft security patch
€>plus a shitload of return messages indicating that outgoing messages to
€>people I don't know, weren't delivered. I've confirmed I'm not infected,
€>but it's 100% certain that one or more of those who have me in their address
€>book are.
€>
€>Lee
€>
€
€So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
€the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
€Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
€running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
€through to the drives.
€
€Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
€SOB's making these virsues up.
€
€
Agreed, although it just occured to me that this sort of virus could be
used as an intelligence test of sorts. A savvy marketeer could develop
a program that returned the address of everyone gullible enough to
double click on the .exe file. They would then get a message that goes
"By executing an application that only the most clueless wouldn't know
was a virus, you've identified yourself as a person too stupid to
operate a computer by yourself. To protect the on-line infrastructure
of the world from people like you, we've developed a special computer
system called WebTV. This system will allow you to surf the web and
exchange e-mail without giving you enough control to actually damage
anything. As a special offer, we've also identified a number of on-line
forums particularily suited to the needs and capabilities of our
special WebTV community. As a diver, we've bookmarked
www.scubaboard.com specially for you. Please disconnect your computer
from the internet now and start enjoying your new WebTV "Clueless
Drooler" (tm) service."
Alan

I love it.



Rick Simms

"To expect your government to save you
is to be a bystander in your own fate."

MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

[Lee Bell]

Old Goat (Old Goat C.I.D.)

Post by "Old Goat" () (Old Goat C.I.D.)
So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
through to the drives.
Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
SOB's making these virsues up.

I just logged on for the first time since about noon and the rule I set up
sent more than 90 messages to the deleted files bin . . . and that's a
reduction in what I have been receiving over the last few days.

Now Dazed and Confuzed reports that his messages to me are boucing due to a
full inbox. If anybody else is having this problem, please keep trying.

Lee

["Old Goat" (mustang5 ) (Old Goat C.I.D.)]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:10:45 GMT, "Lee Bell"

Post by Lee Bell
Old Goat (Old Goat C.I.D.)

Post by "Old Goat" () (Old Goat C.I.D.)
So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
through to the drives.
Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
SOB's making these virsues up.

I just logged on for the first time since about noon and the rule I set up
sent more than 90 messages to the deleted files bin . . . and that's a
reduction in what I have been receiving over the last few days.
Now Dazed and Confuzed reports that his messages to me are boucing due to a
full inbox. If anybody else is having this problem, please keep trying.
Lee

I sent my reply to you regarding the Boynton/Pompano dive. I didn't
get a bounce so, I hope you got it.

Let me know if you didn't.



Rick Simms

"To expect your government to save you
is to be a bystander in your own fate."

MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

[Dan Bracuk]

"Grumman-581" <***@DIE-SPAMMER-***@houston.rr.com> entertained us with:
:You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?

Speaking of which, did anyone else get a bunch of e-mail's from
<quote>microsoft</unquote> today. They come complete with a patch.exe file, and
this sort of text:

"Microsoft Consumer

this is the latest version of security update, the "September 2003, Cumulative
Patch" update which fixes all known security vulnerabilities affecting MS
Internet Explorer, MS Outlook and MS Outlook Express as well as three newly
discovered vulnerabilities. Install now to protect your computer. This update
includes the functionality of all previously released patches. "

The file passes my ISP's virus scanner and mine as well. I use Norton.


Of course the Microsoft Website says this:

"Microsoft Policies on Software Distribution
An important key to safe computing is to never use software from unknown
sources. As pointed out in a CERT advisory, malicious users often use "Trojan
Horses" to deliver harmful software onto unwary users' computers. A Trojan Horse
is a piece of software that appears to do something useful, but which actually
performs hidden, usually damaging, action on the user's computer. For example, a
malicious user might develop a game program that deliberately erases files on
the user's computer while it runs, and distribute it via a web site.

Another Trojan Horse mechanism that is frequently used is to send malicious
software to users via e-mail, claiming that it is a product upgrade from a
software vendor. Recently, several people have done this, sending e-mails that
contain software attachments to wide audiences on the Internet. The e-mails
claim that the attachments are product upgrades from Microsoft or other software
vendors, but in fact they are harmful software that may damage the user's
software and files when they run the attachments.

Microsoft never distributes software directly via e-mail.
We distribute software on physical media like CD ROMs and floppy disks.
We distribute upgrades via the Internet. When we do this, the software will be
available via our web site, http://www.microsoft.com, or through
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/search.asp?.
We occasionally send e-mail to customers to inform them that upgrades are
available. However, the e-mail will only provide links to the download sites --
we will never attach the software itself to the e-mail. The links will always
lead to either our web site or our FTP site, never to a third-party site.
We always use Authenticode to digitally sign our products and allow you to
ensure that they have not been tampered with.
If you receive an e-mail that claims to contain software from Microsoft, do not
run the attachment. The safest course of action is to delete the mail
altogether. If you would like to take additional action, report the e-mail to
the sender's Internet Service Provider. Most ISPs provide an "abuse" userid for
this purpose. "


Dan Bracuk
As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination.
The Best of Rec.Scuba
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/


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["Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>]

"Dan Bracuk" wrote ...

Post by Dan Bracuk
Speaking of which, did anyone else get a bunch
of e-mail's from <quote>microsoft</unquote>
today. They come complete with a patch.exe ...

Nope... It used to be in the old days when virus writers had to create
*real* viruses that would self propagate without any interaction from the
user... These days, they just rely on user stupidity... Hell, *anyone* can
write a virus these days since all it requires is user stupidity to
propagate... Yeah, MS does its part in providing security loopholes to make
it easier for them, but if we could just keep these damn users from clicking
on anything that is sent to them, it would cut down on a lot of the virus
infections...

[Dan Bracuk]

"Lee Willcox" <***@willcoxwebs.com> entertained us with:
: The company I work for
:mandates top posting,

Really?

Dan Bracuk
As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination.
The Best of Rec.Scuba
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/


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[de Valois]

Tricky left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:08:55 +0100 for The Way to clean

Post by Tricky

Post by Lee Willcox
Nope, you "supposed" wrong, and we don't have any jerks like you. :-)

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old

Scout".

Post by Lee Willcox
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him

a

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox

Post by Lee Willcox
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

I suppose in Texas your children are used to being touched by
adults....usually your uncles.....

Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems that
is spreading across the globe?

WHOA!

Don't go equating Texans with Americans. Think of Texans as our Irish, and
you'll get the picture.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Alan Street]

Post by de Valois
Tricky left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:08:55 +0100 for The Way to clean

Post by Tricky
Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems that
is spreading across the globe?

WHOA!
Don't go equating Texans with Americans. Think of Texans as our Irish, and
you'll get the picture.

Keyboard.

[de Valois]

My experience with Texan kids, Lee, tells me they would have spread for the guy
;)



Lee Willcox left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:18:32 -0500 for The Way to

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old Scout".
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.
de Valois left this mess on 18 Sep 2003 05:42:23 -0700 for The Way to

Post by de Valois
Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The

Way to

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say

about

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly

how

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in

retaliation

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one

or

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15

years

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my

friends

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have

dealt

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and

intimidation

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp.

You'd have

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would

have

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely

have

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Lee Willcox]

Post by de Valois
My experience with Texan kids, Lee, tells me they would have spread for the guy
;)
Lee Willcox left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:18:32 -0500 for The Way to

Post by Lee Willcox
de Valois
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old Scout".
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.
de Valois left this mess on 18 Sep 2003 05:42:23 -0700 for The Way to

Post by de Valois
Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The

Way to

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say

about

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly

how

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in

retaliation

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one

or

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15

years

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my

friends

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have

dealt

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois

Post by Greg Mossman
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and

intimidation

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp.

You'd have

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would

have

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely

have

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Then you don't know any Texas kids, none at all,
in fact you have never met one. :-)

[de Valois]

Lee Willcox left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:42:08 -0500 for The Way to

Post by Lee Willcox
Then you don't know any Texas kids, none at all,
in fact you have never met one. :-)

Here's a hint for ya...

"Who shit on your shirt, boy?" :)

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[chilly]

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
a Scout camp.

The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.

[John Francis CID]

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.

The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.

Strikes me the "scuba" and "PADI" part is a red herring, or just
another cheap ploy to generate readership. What difference does it
make if the guy was teaching the kids to dive or bake cookies?

Surely in his wildest dreams the person responsible for sharing this
little packet with actual divers doesn't expect any of us to believe
that PADI is now promoting paedophilia. Although the way some here
rail against PADI it wouldn't surprise me if there are folks who wish
it were so. 8)

JF CID

http://www3.sympatico.ca/johnfrancis/scubachat.htm

[Chris Guynn]

Post by John Francis CID

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.

The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.

Strikes me the "scuba" and "PADI" part is a red herring, or just
another cheap ploy to generate readership. What difference does it
make if the guy was teaching the kids to dive or bake cookies?
Surely in his wildest dreams the person responsible for sharing this
little packet with actual divers doesn't expect any of us to believe
that PADI is now promoting paedophilia. Although the way some here
rail against PADI it wouldn't surprise me if there are folks who wish
it were so. 8)
JF CID
http://www3.sympatico.ca/johnfrancis/scubachat.htm

Could it be a new PADI specialty?

[de Valois]

Chris Guynn left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:30:21 GMT for The Way to clean

Post by Chris Guynn
Could it be a new PADI specialty?

In the interests of not inflaming an already touchy subject, I'm not saying what
I'm thinking.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[de Valois]

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.

The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.

Panicked, yes. Jumped the intructor? I doubt it.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Salty]

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.

The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.

You're right. Actually a few things don't add up here:

1 - The perp is older than usual for a first offense.
2 - He's been working at the same camp for several years without any
complaints.
3 - On the day that he decides to try this stunt for the first time,
not only does he attempt it with one child... but he tries with
several at the same time.
No. Something doesn't add up here at all and I'm not saying that
because it involves PADI.

[jer]

Post by Salty

Post by de Valois

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an

instructor at

Post by de Valois
a Scout camp.

The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.

1 - The perp is older than usual for a first offense.
2 - He's been working at the same camp for several years without any
complaints.
3 - On the day that he decides to try this stunt for the first time,
not only does he attempt it with one child... but he tries with
several at the same time.

I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.

Post by Salty
No. Something doesn't add up here at all and I'm not saying that
because it involves PADI.

[Salty]

Post by jer
I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.

But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.

[jer]

Post by Salty

Post by jer
I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.

But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.

Well, if his 'problem' had surfaced before, I presume he wouldn't have
been working that job for several years without complaint. Am I
expected to believe this pillar of community respect woke up only that
morning as a poolside pedophile? Not likely. So, I really do know
something about his history. So I think I'm not.

[Alan Street]

In article <bkeos2$***@library2.airnews.net>, jer <***@airmail.ten>
wrote:

€Salty wrote:
€
€> jer <***@airmail.ten> wrote in message
€> news:<bkdhvv$***@library1.airnews.net>...
€>
€>
€>>I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
€>>It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.
€>
€>
€> But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
€> 'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
€> against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
€> you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.
€
€
€Well, if his 'problem' had surfaced before, I presume he wouldn't have
€been working that job for several years without complaint. Am I
€expected to believe this pillar of community respect woke up only that
€morning as a poolside pedophile? Not likely. So, I really do know
€something about his history. So I think I'm not.

To some degree, yes you are.

Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
Whether he got caught acting out on his desires for the first time or
has done this for a while, we have no idea. But if he's a peadophile,
it's almost certain that the urges have been there for many years.

The second scenario is that the boys are lying. Don't laugh, it
happens. It's less likely than the first scenario, but it's not unheard
of for a group of kids to plot to hurt someone by making false
accusations like this. Today, these plots usually fail because they
fall apart under detailed questioning (law enforcement has learned a
lot since the McMartin case), but by that time the initial story has
already done it's damage and the press isn't interested in the follow
up.

So, since you've only considered the first scenario, yes, you're
pre-judging him.

Alan

[J***@cc.gatech.edu]

Post by Alan Street
Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
The second scenario is that the boys are lying.

This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time. This is done to protect both the youth (from improper behavior)
AND the adults (from malicious accusations).

-JimG

[de Valois]

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu

Post by Alan Street
Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
The second scenario is that the boys are lying.

This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time. This is done to protect both the youth (from improper behavior)
AND the adults (from malicious accusations).

Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Chris Guynn]

Post by de Valois

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu

Post by Alan Street
Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
The second scenario is that the boys are lying.

This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time. This is done to protect both the youth (from improper behavior)
AND the adults (from malicious accusations).

Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...

He wasn't...

"Another adult counselor was in attendance but was at another location in
the dive tank when the alleged fondling took place, he said."

The Florida Sea Base is one of two High Adventure bases (not classified as
summer camps) in the United States (the other is Philmont in Cimmaron, NM).
They focus entirely on water based activites. They have many scuba
instructors on their staff.

Incidentally, the summer camp I have worked for is expanding into new land
and will be seeking High Adventure Base status before too long. The problem
is that Philmont is a Nationally owned camp and the camp I worked for is a
council operation. Plus, the fact that these two camps would be in
semi-direct competition makes us think that the chances of getting High
Adventure base status are pretty slim.

Post by de Valois
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[J***@cc.gatech.edu]

Post by Chris Guynn
The Florida Sea Base is one of two High Adventure bases (not classified as
summer camps) in the United States (the other is Philmont in Cimmaron, NM).

There are actually about 40 High Adventure Bases in the US. Philmont
and Sea Base are classified as "national" camps. There is a third
national camp - the Northen Tier "Canoe Base" in Minnesota.

Post by Chris Guynn
Incidentally, the summer camp I have worked for is expanding into new land
and will be seeking High Adventure Base status before too long.

Is that the Double H Ranch? I heard a rumor that they were getting
ready to do something there. I'd be interested in some details on it,
if you have any.

-JimG

[Chris Guynn]

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu

Post by Chris Guynn
The Florida Sea Base is one of two High Adventure bases (not classified as
summer camps) in the United States (the other is Philmont in Cimmaron, NM).

There are actually about 40 High Adventure Bases in the US. Philmont
and Sea Base are classified as "national" camps. There is a third
national camp - the Northen Tier "Canoe Base" in Minnesota.

I always forget about the Canoe base... maybe because I have never had a
desire to go there. I actually didn't even know about the rest of the High
Adventure bases... That's good news as it may mean we have a better shot at
the designation...

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu

Post by Chris Guynn
Incidentally, the summer camp I have worked for is expanding into new land
and will be seeking High Adventure Base status before too long.

Is that the Double H Ranch? I heard a rumor that they were getting
ready to do something there. I'd be interested in some details on it,
if you have any.

Nope, it's Buffalo Trail Scout Ranch. Located inteh Davis mountains. Rumor
has it it is the third largest scout camp in the world (behind Philmont and
some camp in the Balck Forest of Germany). About 10,000 acres of some of
the harshest terrain you could ever hope to go backpacking in. It's hot,
rocky, steep terrain and I love it.

C Guynn

[J***@cc.gatech.edu]

Post by de Valois

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu
This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time.

Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...

According to the CDNN article, another adult was present in the dive
tank, just not at the specific location where the alleged incident
occurred.

BSA takes this stuff very seriously. Just to show you how strict they
are on this - I attended BSA Summer Camp a couple of years ago with my
three children and their troop. One of my kids was injured and I had to
take him to the local emergency room. The camp staff insisted that
another adult go along with the two of us, even though it was my own
son that I was taking. If it is a BSA camp, then they are required to
adhere to BSA policy, which means two adults with the boys at all
times.

Every Adult Leader is required to complete a "Youth Protection" program
that addresses exactly these kinds of issues, and the aforementioned
SCUBA instructor should have known that. It's every adult's
responsibility to make sure that the rules are followed - to do
otherwise is just asking for trouble.

-JimG

[Chris Guynn]

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu

Post by de Valois

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu
This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time.

Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...

According to the CDNN article, another adult was present in the dive
tank, just not at the specific location where the alleged incident
occurred.
BSA takes this stuff very seriously. Just to show you how strict they
are on this - I attended BSA Summer Camp a couple of years ago with my
three children and their troop. One of my kids was injured and I had to
take him to the local emergency room. The camp staff insisted that
another adult go along with the two of us, even though it was my own
son that I was taking. If it is a BSA camp, then they are required to
adhere to BSA policy, which means two adults with the boys at all
times.

This policy does not actually cover father/son situations. For instance,
adults are NEVER allowed to tent with youth... unless the youth is their
child.

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu
Every Adult Leader is required to complete a "Youth Protection" program
that addresses exactly these kinds of issues, and the aforementioned
SCUBA instructor should have known that. It's every adult's
responsibility to make sure that the rules are followed - to do
otherwise is just asking for trouble.

You are correct, but I would also add that, not only are they required to
take the course, they are required to take the course EVERY YEAR.
Basically, the course consists of a video (that sucks) interpersed with
discussion about the topic.

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu
-JimG
--
College of Computing is A = X+Y+Z, where X is "work", Y is
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 "play", and Z is "keep your mouth shut"

[Lee Bell]

Post by de Valois

Post by J***@cc.gatech.edu

Post by Alan Street
Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
The second scenario is that the boys are lying.

This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time. This is done to protect both the youth (from improper behavior)
AND the adults (from malicious accusations).

Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

According to a separate report, there were two of them. The guy that is
accused of abusing the boys supposedly took them aside, one at a time, to do
it.

Sounds fishy to me, but you never know.

Lee

[de Valois]

Post by jer

Post by Salty

Post by jer
I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.

But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.

Well, if his 'problem' had surfaced before, I presume he wouldn't have
been working that job for several years without complaint. Am I
expected to believe this pillar of community respect woke up only that
morning as a poolside pedophile? Not likely. So, I really do know
something about his history. So I think I'm not.

Not true. Look at the complaints against various Catholic parishes, many by full
grown men.

We can't presume, either way. He may, he may not. In America, that automatically
means he's innocent, since he hasn't been proven guilty (either in the current
case or of past cases), that we know of.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[John]

Apologies?

No cocksucker in this newsgroup deserves any apology. Especially the
one you mention.

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
a Scout camp.

Post by de Valois
Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The Way to

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[de Valois]

Sorry you feel that way...cocksucker! :D

Post by John
Apologies?
No cocksucker in this newsgroup deserves any apology. Especially the
one you mention.

Post by de Valois
Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
a Scout camp.

Post by de Valois
Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The Way to

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

I though you were a lawyer.

I guess you lost your faith un di juicestiuice suiystem.

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Lee Bell
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.

Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

[Scott]

Post by Greg Mossman
Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

And been out of jail by 18, with the comfort of knowing that you rid the
earth of his shadow.

[Dillon Pyron]

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:14:55 -0700, "Scott"

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Greg Mossman
Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my

friends

Post by Greg Mossman
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

And been out of jail by 18, with the comfort of knowing that you rid the
earth of his shadow.

He fell down a flight of stairs.

We were just fooling around and I accidentally hit him with the
baseball bat.

He said the gun was unloaded and was going to prove it.

He said to throw him the knife and I'm too young to know not to take
it literally.

[Scott]

Post by Dillon Pyron
He fell down a flight of stairs.
We were just fooling around and I accidentally hit him with the
baseball bat.
He said the gun was unloaded and was going to prove it.
He said to throw him the knife and I'm too young to know not to take
it literally.

Remember Sister Mary Elephant?

He fell several times onto a large fist-shaped rock...

Or, as we were instructed in basic;

"You catch a fucker stealing, you holler THIEF at the top of your lungs.
I'll take my time getting there, and wont see anything when I arrive."

[Jer]

Post by Dillon Pyron
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:14:55 -0700, "Scott"

Post by Greg Mossman

Post by Greg Mossman
Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my

friends

Post by Greg Mossman
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.

And been out of jail by 18, with the comfort of knowing that you rid the
earth of his shadow.

He fell down a flight of stairs.
We were just fooling around and I accidentally hit him with the
baseball bat.

Three times!

Post by Dillon Pyron
He said the gun was unloaded and was going to prove it.
He said to throw him the knife and I'm too young to know not to take
it literally.

[Mike Painter]

Post by Scott

Post by Greg Mossman
Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first
one or two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14
and 15 years old and there were four of them. If someone did that
to me and my friends when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have
been arrested, we'd have dealt with him ourselves.

And been out of jail by 18, with the comfort of knowing that you rid
the earth of his shadow.

Unless tried as an adult.
But I wonder.

A lot of my friends have seen a lot of death and many of them have killed.
Legally, in a time of war.
They haven't got over it yet.
They are bothered by the idea of killing.
They are human.

You brave souls, with your brave comments about killing a human, how many of
you have done it?

[DavidM]

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

ouch. I hope that wasn't what happened to Scuba Bobby.

Cheers
David M

[MMackay-Blair]

Nah apparently a Rabbit was seen attending the IDC for it however

[Robert]

Maybe he was following the DIR principles.

Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.

Irrespective of my opinions,

A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.

At most, probation and counseling.




On 17 Sep 2003 19:15:24 -0500, "Scuba News"

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

[Chris Guynn]

Post by Robert
Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
Irrespective of my opinions,
A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.

A few questions...
1.) Are you saying a "good lawyer" would argue that his hands slipped into 2
separate boys swim trunks on accident?
2.) What would a slimy pool have to do with the boys swim trunks and
genitalia?
3.) What does the YMCA have to do with this?

Post by Robert
At most, probation and counseling.

At the very least, he's already lost his job as well as his ability to work
with the Boy Scouts. Unfortunately this will probably be true even if he
was not guilty of the accusations.
<snip>

C Guynn

[Robert]

He won't do jail.


He looks like a good ole boy.......................white

I agree of your apprehension in the application of "good" to ANY
lawyer. They are all slyme.

A joke to lighten up:

What is the difference between a death skunk on the road and a dead
lawyer on the road?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

The skunk will have skidmarks in front of him.





On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:08:10 GMT, "Chris Guynn"

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Robert
Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
Irrespective of my opinions,
A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.

A few questions...
1.) Are you saying a "good lawyer" would argue that his hands slipped into 2
separate boys swim trunks on accident?
2.) What would a slimy pool have to do with the boys swim trunks and
genitalia?
3.) What does the YMCA have to do with this?

Post by Robert
At most, probation and counseling.

At the very least, he's already lost his job as well as his ability to work
with the Boy Scouts. Unfortunately this will probably be true even if he
was not guilty of the accusations.
<snip>
C Guynn

[Lee Bell]

Post by Robert
I agree of your apprehension in the application of "good" to ANY
lawyer. They are all slyme.
What is the difference between a death skunk on the road and a dead
lawyer on the road?

The lawyer's estate will have sufficient funds to collect and safely dispose
of the corpse. The skunk will have to rely on charity.

Lee

[Randy Cain]

Post by Robert
Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
Irrespective of my opinions,
A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.
At most, probation and counseling.
On 17 Sep 2003 19:15:24 -0500, "Scuba News"

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

Couple of items of interest here:

1) Why does it not surprise you that it is a PADI Instructor? Are you
stating that PADI instructors are more likely to be child molesters?

2) What does the YMCA have to do with a BSA Camp and PADI?

3) What does a slimy pool have to do with this particular case?


Curious minds want to hear the answers!!!

Randy

[Christopher Hamilton]

I am curious to know why some people aren't surprised he was a padi
instructor and are they more or less surprised he was working for the
scouts? Was he a scout master? I know there is a long process here to have
anything to do with children, background checks, criminal records checks. Is
it the same everywhere? I am assuming not!

Post by Randy Cain

Post by Robert
Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
Irrespective of my opinions,
A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.
At most, probation and counseling.
On 17 Sep 2003 19:15:24 -0500, "Scuba News"

Post by Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html

1) Why does it not surprise you that it is a PADI Instructor? Are you
stating that PADI instructors are more likely to be child molesters?
2) What does the YMCA have to do with a BSA Camp and PADI?
3) What does a slimy pool have to do with this particular case?
Curious minds want to hear the answers!!!
Randy

[Chris Guynn]

Post by Christopher Hamilton
I am curious to know why some people aren't surprised he was a padi
instructor and are they more or less surprised he was working for the
scouts? Was he a scout master? I know there is a long process here to have
anything to do with children, background checks, criminal records checks. Is
it the same everywhere? I am assuming not!

I can't say for sure whether or not he was a scoutmaster, but I can say that
the likelihood of that being true is very slim. He would have had to go
through the background checks because he would have to be a registered adult
in the Boy Scouts. I don't know how extensive the background checks are,
but from what I hear they are pretty good. I'm not surprised that someone
working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who were
pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their "leadership"
positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI instructor,
I am not surprised that he is. The Boy Scouts position on scuba diving is
fairly restrictive. One of the requirements is that the leader of the scuba
"adventure" must be certified by an agency recognized by the BSA. The
published list of recognized agencies includes 2 (PADI and NAUI). They
recognize and allow more agency affiliations than that, but you have to get
special permission for other agencies. At least, that's the way it was 2
summers ago when I was certified to be a BSA Aquatics Inctructor (BSA AI)
and, from what I hear, it didn't change over the last year (my best friend
was recertified as a BSA AI last summer).

<snip>

[Nitespark]

Post by Chris Guynn
I can't say for sure whether or not he was a scoutmaster, but I can say that
the likelihood of that being true is very slim. He would have had to go
through the background checks because he would have to be a registered adult
in the Boy Scouts. I don't know how extensive the background checks are,
but from what I hear they are pretty good. I'm not surprised that someone
working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who were
pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their "leadership"
positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI instructor,

Chris,
A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all. In my local area, a
substitute teacher, who was also an ordained minister, was recently
arrested for indecent liberties. The local school board did an
extensive background investigation on this person and nothing turned up.

A spokesman with the school board interviewed on the news said this
person was suspended from his substitute teaching position, and barred
from any school property.

Now as far as the person in the original post being PADI, whether or not
he is guilty is not for me to decide, but even if he is, I doubt the
certifying agency has anything to do with his criminal intentions.
Could have just as easily been NAUI, SSI, etc etc.

[Chris Guynn]

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
I can't say for sure whether or not he was a scoutmaster, but I can say that
the likelihood of that being true is very slim. He would have had to go
through the background checks because he would have to be a registered adult
in the Boy Scouts. I don't know how extensive the background checks are,
but from what I hear they are pretty good. I'm not surprised that someone
working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who were
pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their "leadership"
positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI instructor,

Chris,
A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all.

Agreed. I would imagine that a pedophile can often get away with numerous
incidents without being reported. If they aren't reported, a background
check doesn't help much. Also, a background check doesn't help much for
first time offenders. Unfortunately, it is no where near a cure-all, but it
does help.

Post by Nitespark
In my local area, a
substitute teacher, who was also an ordained minister, was recently
arrested for indecent liberties. The local school board did an
extensive background investigation on this person and nothing turned up.
A spokesman with the school board interviewed on the news said this
person was suspended from his substitute teaching position, and barred
from any school property.

Now the question becomes, if they are found not guilty, do you allow them
back into the school system?

Post by Nitespark
Now as far as the person in the original post being PADI, whether or not
he is guilty is not for me to decide, but even if he is, I doubt the
certifying agency has anything to do with his criminal intentions.
Could have just as easily been NAUI, SSI, etc etc.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I dais that the certifying agency was
really irrelevant. I wasn't surprised it was PADI, but I would have been
equally unsurprised if it had been NAUI and only (very)slightly more
surprised if it had been SSI (simply because of the BSA policy on recognized
agencies... SSI and others qualify, but they have to have special
permission).

C Guynn

[Nitespark]

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who

were

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their

"leadership"

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI

instructor,

Post by Nitespark
Chris,
A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all.

Agreed. I would imagine that a pedophile can often get away with numerous
incidents without being reported. If they aren't reported, a background
check doesn't help much. Also, a background check doesn't help much for
first time offenders. Unfortunately, it is no where near a cure-all, but it
does help.

It is very much like the crime of rape. A vast number of rapes are NOT
reported. Likewise, if the rapist has never been arrested, then he can
get away with the crime until someone does get the courage to come
forward, or the crime escalates, with injury.

Probably the biggest deterrent is the knowledge the WILL be caught and
when they are, they WILL be dealt with harshly. Criminals that commit
crimes against kids have a VERY tough time in prison.

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Nitespark
In my local area, a
substitute teacher, who was also an ordained minister, was recently
arrested for indecent liberties. The local school board did an
extensive background investigation on this person and nothing turned up.
A spokesman with the school board interviewed on the news said this
person was suspended from his substitute teaching position, and barred
from any school property.

Now the question becomes, if they are found not guilty, do you allow them
back into the school system?

Good question. My personal opinion...HELL NO!!! Unless it can be
proved the victims lied and made the entire episodes up....but I think
in this case, it was multiple victims on multiple occassions. That is
much harder to fabricate than a "one victim, one incident" scenario.

["Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>]

"Nitespark" wrote ...

Criminals that commit crimes against kids
have a VERY tough time in prison.

As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

[Nitespark]

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Nitespark" wrote ...

Criminals that commit crimes against kids
have a VERY tough time in prison.

As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.

[de Valois]

Nitespark left this mess on Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:31:39 -0400 for The Way to clean

Post by Nitespark

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Nitespark" wrote ...

Criminals that commit crimes against kids
have a VERY tough time in prison.

As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.

I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
dark cloud.

In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
not have to.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Nitespark]

Post by de Valois
Nitespark left this mess on Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:31:39 -0400 for The Way to clean

Post by Nitespark

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Nitespark" wrote ...

Criminals that commit crimes against kids
have a VERY tough time in prison.

As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.

I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
dark cloud.

He DID live the rest of his life in jail under that dark cloud.

While I agree with you, confinement for the rest of his natural life
would have been appropriate punishment for molesting kids, I shed no
tears at his demise.

My comment was NOT meant as much as an opinion on how appropriate the
punishment, as much as we can now absolutely guarantee that HE will
never commit that crime, or any crime again.

I have dealt with situations where the death penalty was quite appropriate.

Post by de Valois
In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
not have to.

Jesus will forgive him and died for his sins. God will sit in judgement.

[de Valois]

Nitespark left this mess on Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:01:07 -0400 for The Way to clean

Post by Nitespark

Post by de Valois
I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
dark cloud.

He DID live the rest of his life in jail under that dark cloud.
While I agree with you, confinement for the rest of his natural life
would have been appropriate punishment for molesting kids, I shed no
tears at his demise.

Nor will I, for very personal reasons.

Post by Nitespark
My comment was NOT meant as much as an opinion on how appropriate the
punishment, as much as we can now absolutely guarantee that HE will
never commit that crime, or any crime again.
I have dealt with situations where the death penalty was quite appropriate.

Agreed. While it's not appropriate to turn this into a thread about the death
penalty, I just couldn't come up with a better way of expressing my thoughts,
which are conflicted on this issue of his death.

Post by Nitespark

Post by de Valois
In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
not have to.

Jesus will forgive him and died for his sins. God will sit in judgement.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Chris Guynn]

Post by de Valois
Nitespark left this mess on Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:01:07 -0400 for The Way to clean

Post by Nitespark

Post by de Valois
I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
dark cloud.

He DID live the rest of his life in jail under that dark cloud.
While I agree with you, confinement for the rest of his natural life
would have been appropriate punishment for molesting kids, I shed no
tears at his demise.

Nor will I, for very personal reasons.

Post by Nitespark
My comment was NOT meant as much as an opinion on how appropriate the
punishment, as much as we can now absolutely guarantee that HE will
never commit that crime, or any crime again.
I have dealt with situations where the death penalty was quite appropriate.

Agreed. While it's not appropriate to turn this into a thread about the death
penalty, I just couldn't come up with a better way of expressing my thoughts,
which are conflicted on this issue of his death.

This is rec.scuba... pretty much anything is appropriate except spam. ;-)

C Guynn

[Chris Guynn]

Post by de Valois
Nitespark left this mess on Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:31:39 -0400 for The Way to clean

Post by Nitespark

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Nitespark" wrote ...

Criminals that commit crimes against kids
have a VERY tough time in prison.

As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.

I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
dark cloud.

I have mixed feelings about this. It does seem that killing him made it
less of a punishment if only because the punishment didn't last so long. On
the other hand, if the person has a life sentence (without possibility of
parole), why burden teh taxpayers with his upkeep? Personally, I haven't
decided yet which side of this fence I come down on and generally skip over
these type of issues in elections.

Post by de Valois
In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
not have to.

I'm pretty sure he got off too easy, but at least we don't have to pay for
him any more. As far as Jesus forgiving him goes, I can't say whether he
will or not, but if the priest repented then he will be forgiven (by God).

Post by de Valois
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

[Jer]

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
"Nitespark" wrote ...

Criminals that commit crimes against kids
have a VERY tough time in prison.

As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

He wasn't beaten to death, he slipped on a bar of soap - six times.

[Lee Bell]

Post by "Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>

Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord. Nobody promised that it would not be
delivered by Buba.

Lee

[Chris Guynn]

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who

were

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their

"leadership"

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn
positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI

instructor,

Post by Nitespark
Chris,
A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all.

Agreed. I would imagine that a pedophile can often get away with numerous
incidents without being reported. If they aren't reported, a background
check doesn't help much. Also, a background check doesn't help much for
first time offenders. Unfortunately, it is no where near a cure-all, but it
does help.

It is very much like the crime of rape. A vast number of rapes are NOT
reported. Likewise, if the rapist has never been arrested, then he can
get away with the crime until someone does get the courage to come
forward, or the crime escalates, with injury.

Precisely my point. Thanks for saying it better than I did.

Post by Nitespark
Probably the biggest deterrent is the knowledge the WILL be caught and
when they are, they WILL be dealt with harshly. Criminals that commit
crimes against kids have a VERY tough time in prison.

Too bad the deterrent doesn't work better. Of course that could be said
until the crimes were completely wiped out...

Post by Nitespark
Good question. My personal opinion...HELL NO!!! Unless it can be
proved the victims lied and made the entire episodes up....but I think
in this case, it was multiple victims on multiple occassions. That is
much harder to fabricate than a "one victim, one incident" scenario.

I have mixed feelings about this. A verdict of Not Guilty really only means
that the prosecution couldn't prove their case. It doesn't mean he didn't
do it; although, for most intents and purposes, a verdict of not guilty is
viewed (by many) the same as innocent. I'm not sure what the legal
ramifications are, but I would guess that if he is found not guilty it would
be hard to justify not re-hiring him simply because he had been accused. On
the other hand, I wouldn't want my kid going to school there and I
especially wouldn't want my kid to be in his class.

[Nitespark]

Post by Chris Guynn
Precisely my point. Thanks for saying it better than I did.

Post by Nitespark
Probably the biggest deterrent is the knowledge the WILL be caught and
when they are, they WILL be dealt with harshly. Criminals that commit
crimes against kids have a VERY tough time in prison.

Too bad the deterrent doesn't work better. Of course that could be said
until the crimes were completely wiped out...

I am no psychologist but have gone through quite a bit of training and
education in this topic. My best guess, is the hardcore that keep doing
it do not consider the possibility of getting caught. Most likely, the
possibility of getting caught is a deterrent for the vast majority of
pedophiles....its the small percentage that think they are too smart, or
have been doing it so long they feel they have beat the system.

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Nitespark
Good question. My personal opinion...HELL NO!!! Unless it can be
proved the victims lied and made the entire episodes up....but I think
in this case, it was multiple victims on multiple occassions. That is
much harder to fabricate than a "one victim, one incident" scenario.

I have mixed feelings about this. A verdict of Not Guilty really only means
that the prosecution couldn't prove their case. It doesn't mean he didn't
do it; although, for most intents and purposes, a verdict of not guilty is
viewed (by many) the same as innocent. I'm not sure what the legal
ramifications are, but I would guess that if he is found not guilty it would
be hard to justify not re-hiring him simply because he had been accused. On
the other hand, I wouldn't want my kid going to school there and I
especially wouldn't want my kid to be in his class.

I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
sue for negligent retention.

As I said earlier, unless it is proven conclusively, the kids totally
lied and fabricated the story, then the person should not be returned to
employment....but then that is just my opinion.

[Chris Guynn]

"Nitespark" <***@h8spam.cox.net> wrote in message news:zU_bb.2974$***@lakeread05...
<snip>

Post by Nitespark
I am no psychologist but have gone through quite a bit of training and
education in this topic. My best guess, is the hardcore that keep doing
it do not consider the possibility of getting caught. Most likely, the
possibility of getting caught is a deterrent for the vast majority of
pedophiles....its the small percentage that think they are too smart, or
have been doing it so long they feel they have beat the system.

You're probably right.

Post by Nitespark
I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
sue for negligent retention.

I bet the wrongful termination suit would cost less than the negligent
retention... I'd leave the guy canned. Not becaue of the expected payout in
case of suits, but because of the more obvious reasons. I'd rather this guy
not work for me than have a kid get molested. Although, I wouldn't let the
case affect my decision if I weren't involved in a child-intensive industry.

C Guynn

[Nitespark]

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Nitespark
I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
sue for negligent retention.

I bet the wrongful termination suit would cost less than the negligent
retention... I'd leave the guy canned. Not becaue of the expected payout in
case of suits, but because of the more obvious reasons. I'd rather this guy
not work for me than have a kid get molested. Although, I wouldn't let the
case affect my decision if I weren't involved in a child-intensive industry.

I am with you on this. The welfare of the kids comes first. The only
other alternative would be for them to "make a job" for him in some
capacity where he doesn't have any contact with kids....night janitor
working 2300-0700 or something like that. He could grieve a
termination, but he cannot grieve his assigned duties or work hours.

[rnf2]

If he is a Masters of Business teaching Accounting and Head of Department,
he could grieve his assigned duties.

Promote him to twice the duties, on the same paycheck, in an office with the
door where the receptionist can see he doesn't leave it, and feed him
nothing but paperwork, and never give him a rise.

Post by Nitespark

Post by Chris Guynn

Post by Nitespark
I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
sue for negligent retention.

I bet the wrongful termination suit would cost less than the negligent
retention... I'd leave the guy canned. Not becaue of the expected payout in
case of suits, but because of the more obvious reasons. I'd rather this guy
not work for me than have a kid get molested. Although, I wouldn't let the
case affect my decision if I weren't involved in a child-intensive industry.

I am with you on this. The welfare of the kids comes first. The only
other alternative would be for them to "make a job" for him in some
capacity where he doesn't have any contact with kids....night janitor
working 2300-0700 or something like that. He could grieve a
termination, but he cannot grieve his assigned duties or work hours.
--
More people died at Chappaquiddick than have been killed by my guns.