Discussion:
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
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Dive News
2003-11-01 10:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death

http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Slow Death
2003-11-02 10:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dive News
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not
ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights
and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
TonyP
2003-11-02 11:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slow Death
Post by Dive News
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not
ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights
and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
Especially 50 pounds of weights!
Splosh Junkie
2003-11-02 11:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slow Death
Post by Dive News
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not
ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights
and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
Adrenalin, thats whats difficult.

Its gets all of us in different ways and with all the training in the world,
you cant plan for how the rush will hit you. Recent inquests, St Abbs and
Fort William, have shown that trained divers who get into difficulty,
sometimes dont do as they are trained.

Personally speaking I've not been in a serious situation diving (A couple of
freeflows and an entrapment) but in my line of work I have been trained in
how to deal with an armed raid. This involved mock ups and having knives
and unloaded guns pointed at me in a controlled environment. There is no
adrenelin rush in this situation, excitment yes, but fear of death no.

A year after this training took place, I was involved in an armed raid which
involved a pistol being aimed directly at me in 20 feet in front of me by a
14 year kid, in the space of 2 seconds I'd gone from going about my everyday
job to realising I'm very close to death and every action I do from here on
in, my life, and those of my staff depend on it. This wasn't a rush like
parachuting, bungee jumping, motorbiking or whatever, this was a life or
death situation. It like your first dive, jump, orgasm, all in one go and
then amplified 1000 times. You feel every heartbeat as if your heart is a
V12 engine in your chest, your limbs are ten times their weight, and your
blood feels 5 times its normal temperature. Forget about breathing, thats
an involuntary action that up until now you never thought about, then all of
the sudden you realise that you need to breathe and force your lungs open.
Thats all you think about for what seems like hours, but it is in fact micro
seconds. Then you react, some react as per training, do as the situation
dictates, the enemy is the dangerous animal, you are the hunted, you do as
they say. I can talk about from experience now.

Then there are ones who react with their instincts, to counter react or do
something completely irrational, these are normally the ones who currently
have an epitath six feet above their heads. Its not their fault, its not
the trainings fault, its natures fault for making us all different.

I have friends who have personal involvement with an underwater death. The
man they failed to resusitate was a man of good intelligence, who was a
trained, qualified and experienced diver who didn't react to a problem as he
was trained (his BC hose was unconnected at the surface). This man was also
GP who had saved many lives and helped hundreds of people live a better or
longer life than nature intended.

Next time you find yourself, a loved one or a friend, being dragged out of
the water, just remember those who are trained to keep you alive, and
experience adrenalin rushes similar to those I speak of, whilst performing
CPR etc.

Whats so f**king difficult about that then?


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Dave C
2003-11-02 17:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Splosh Junkie
Post by Slow Death
Post by Dive News
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not
ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights
and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
Adrenalin, thats whats difficult.
Its gets all of us in different ways and with all the training in the world,
you cant plan for how the rush will hit you. Recent inquests, St Abbs and
Fort William, have shown that trained divers who get into difficulty,
sometimes dont do as they are trained.
SNIPPED the middle of a great post...
Post by Splosh Junkie
Next time you find yourself, a loved one or a friend, being dragged out of
the water, just remember those who are trained to keep you alive, and
experience adrenalin rushes similar to those I speak of, whilst performing
CPR etc.
Whats so f**king difficult about that then?
Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and
humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and
pretense. Thanks.

A humble respect for the power of adrenalin leads me to believe that
the same thing could happen to me. It's a "fight or flight" response,
not a "think" response. Trained behaviors don't always get activated.

I got smartened up once on a solo dive 80 feet down in reduced vis,
scalloping at a fevered pace and finning so hard that my heart and
lungs were screaming, when a drifting plastic bag suddenly wrapped
itself around my face. It was a bug-eyed moment of terror that could
have easily led to panic. Since then, I stay a little further away
from the panic threshold by keeping well within my cardiovascular
limits.

I would offer my sympathy and condolences to those involved in that
Alaska dive accident rather than a verdict of incompetence.

Dave C
Toto
2003-11-02 18:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave C
Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and
humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and
pretense. Thanks.
A humble respect for the power of adrenalin leads me to believe that
the same thing could happen to me. It's a "fight or flight" response,
not a "think" response. Trained behaviors don't always get activated.
I got smartened up once on a solo dive 80 feet down in reduced vis,
scalloping at a fevered pace and finning so hard that my heart and
lungs were screaming, when a drifting plastic bag suddenly wrapped
itself around my face. It was a bug-eyed moment of terror that could
have easily led to panic. Since then, I stay a little further away
from the panic threshold by keeping well within my cardiovascular
limits.
I would offer my sympathy and condolences to those involved in that
Alaska dive accident rather than a verdict of incompetence.
Dave C
Or how about best laid plans of men and mice....

translation: shit happens.

Or Sorry for your loss.

translation: I'm not an ass who knows fuck all and I'm considerate of others
feelings


Toto

ok, stupid human diver toss the ball...
bye
James Connell
2003-11-02 18:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toto
Or how about best laid plans of men and mice....
translation: shit happens.
Or Sorry for your loss.
translation: I'm not an ass who knows fuck all and I'm considerate of others
feelings
Toto
ok, stupid human diver toss the ball...
bye
you are possibly the dumest SOB i'v ever had the displeasure of finding
on usenet. *PLONK*
Toto
2003-11-02 23:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Connell
Post by Toto
Or how about best laid plans of men and mice....
translation: shit happens.
Or Sorry for your loss.
translation: I'm not an ass who knows fuck all and I'm considerate of others
feelings
Toto
ok, stupid human diver toss the ball...
bye
you are possibly the dumest SOB i'v ever had the displeasure of finding
on usenet. *PLONK*
Your such an expert.
How many ffm dives on a hose have you done?
In extreme cold water?
In current?
With out fins.
How do you know the mask didn't get pulled and flooded, he was dealing with
a snagged hose in current.
If the people there don't know.
Your fucking clairvoyant?
Or
You do not know what the fuck your talking about.

I thought so...

I'll give you the short version.

Shit happens, he failed to correct the situation in time.
He drowned.

*PLONK*

WTF is that Your brain falling in the toilet while you take a piss.

We lost a highly trained police diver in a similar type dive recovering a
child a few years back.
Hoses / safety lines in current are not to be played with.

Then neither where sport divers.

Rec.scuba


Toto

don't step in anything on the way out
Lee Bell
2003-11-02 23:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Connell
*PLONK*
WTF is that Your brain falling in the toilet while you take a piss.
No, that would be plink. To get a good PLONK, you need something with
reasonable mass.

Lee
James Connell
2003-11-03 00:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Bell
Post by James Connell
*PLONK*
WTF is that Your brain falling in the toilet while you take a piss.
No, that would be plink. To get a good PLONK, you need something with
reasonable mass.
Lee
i think that was an insult, lee.

for toto: which i think it is safe to assume is short (and missspelled)
for "total dipshit" - it's the sound of your silly useless posts dropong
into a kill file, i knew you were stupid but even a reletively new
usenet user can catch that one.
Toto
2003-11-03 00:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Hey I got the spelling off the Wizard Of Oz Site.
Well help out the mentaly challenge here and throw out a bone.
How's it spelled and I'll change it.
Of couse I can wait while you fish your brain out of the bowl and dry it
off.

Toto

checks her name tag...
wtf who spelled my name wrong?
Hey, little doggie needs some help here!!
Post by James Connell
Post by Lee Bell
Post by James Connell
*PLONK*
WTF is that Your brain falling in the toilet while you take a piss.
No, that would be plink. To get a good PLONK, you need something with
reasonable mass.
Lee
i think that was an insult, lee.
for toto: which i think it is safe to assume is short (and missspelled)
for "total dipshit" - it's the sound of your silly useless posts dropong
into a kill file, i knew you were stupid but even a reletively new
usenet user can catch that one.
Lee Bell
2003-11-03 01:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Connell
i think that was an insult, lee.
Yeah, but don't let it bother you. It wasn't aimed. The opportunity
presented itself and the devil made me do it.

Lee
James Connell
2003-11-03 15:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Bell
Post by James Connell
i think that was an insult, lee.
Yeah, but don't let it bother you. It wasn't aimed. The opportunity
presented itself and the devil made me do it.
Lee
didn't bother me - i'd have probably done the same.

ya know the artical didn't really say how long these guys were down. i
wonder if he set the selector block wrong and started the dive on the
bailout bottle then paniced when it ran dry?
James Connell
2003-11-03 20:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Morten Reistad
2003-11-16 07:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave C
Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and
humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and
pretense. Thanks.
A humble respect for the power of adrenalin leads me to believe that
the same thing could happen to me. It's a "fight or flight" response,
not a "think" response. Trained behaviors don't always get activated.
I got smartened up once on a solo dive 80 feet down in reduced vis,
scalloping at a fevered pace and finning so hard that my heart and
lungs were screaming, when a drifting plastic bag suddenly wrapped
itself around my face. It was a bug-eyed moment of terror that could
have easily led to panic. Since then, I stay a little further away
from the panic threshold by keeping well within my cardiovascular
limits.
I would offer my sympathy and condolences to those involved in that
Alaska dive accident rather than a verdict of incompetence.
I send mine as well.

"Diver error", indeed!

In the aviation industry there was a long track of accidents, usually
fatal, and inquests that concluded with "cause of accident : pilot error".
Seen from a police crew looking for evidence of criminal activity this
was a standard phrase to define themseves outside the scope of events;
no crime had occurred, and this was all they really were after.
This lasted until just after WW2. During the war there had been a
large effort to analyze and learn from the accidents that happened; and
work to redesign hardware, procedures and training to stamp out fatal crashes
caused by simple human errors.

An important part of this was to never, ever close an inquest again
with the cause "Pilot error". All such inquests were promptly reopened.

This escalated to a flamewar leading to the fact that the police lost
jurisdiction over aviation. The pilot on a plane now has police powers,
and reports directly to the aviation administration in such matters.

"Pilot errors" are also stamped out.

This lesson has never carried over to diving, or any other maritime
use as well. We need a similar movement to stamp out the verdict
"diver error". This was just an example of such a verdict. There was
no analysis of the causes to WHY this error was done.

There is a similar problem with all maritime accident control.

.. mrr

Eric
2003-11-03 01:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave C
Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and
humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and
pretense. Thanks.
A humble respect for the power of adrenalin leads me to believe that
the same thing could happen to me. It's a "fight or flight" response,
not a "think" response. Trained behaviors don't always get activated.
Agreed - I know too many people who get this deer-in-the-headlights look
on their face whenever they encounter something unexpected. Different
people have a different threshold for what would freak them out. Some
people would freak if they lost so much as a fin. A lot of this depends
upon the level of experience, but some of it just has to do with the
personality of the individual. How many of you would keep a cool head if
all of a sudden you suddenly couldn't draw air out of your reg in the middle
of a dive? I know we all would like to think that we could handle it
without the heart rate climbing up to three times the resting rate, but what
would happen if it were to happen in real life??

There was an interesting program on TV some time ago about Navy Seals
and the types of things they must endure in the training class in order to
become an official Navy Seal. It starts (in a pool) with the instructor
coming down and ripping your mask off, and/or ripping out your reg.. You
then get a little time to get it all straightened out - take one (usually
just one) deep breath, and then they come in and do it all over again.
Towards the end of this, the instructor would not only rip the reg out of
your mouth, but knot up the hose and then leave you to get it straightened
out again. If you surface, you flunk the class. I don't remember the
details - I think they have to stay down something like 20 minutes with this
sort of stuff going on.

I guess my own reaction to the story in Alaska is that perhaps my next
specialty course ought be the rescue diving class. You never know when you
might need it...

-Eric
"Grumman-581" @houston.rr.com>
2003-11-03 03:42:03 UTC
Permalink
"Eric" worte ...
Post by Eric
How many of you would keep a cool head if
all of a sudden you suddenly couldn't draw air
out of your reg in the middle of a dive?
Dayum, time to switch tanks... No big deal...
James Connell
2003-11-02 18:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Splosh Junkie
Post by Slow Death
Post by Dive News
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not
ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights
and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
a better Q is - why didn't he go to the bailout? remove the immediate
problem THEN solve the rest.
Post by Splosh Junkie
Adrenalin, thats whats difficult.
Its gets all of us in different ways and with all the training in the world,
you cant plan for how the rush will hit you. Recent inquests, St Abbs and
Fort William, have shown that trained divers who get into difficulty,
sometimes dont do as they are trained.
< snipped>

research has also shown that as panic sets in there's a narrowing of
'thought'. best i can explain it is training is like an onion with the
most basic training the innermost shell of the onion. as panic ( and not
just panic, it happens as the task load increases) sets in the most
recently ;earned skills are forgotten and you progresivly fall back on
older and older learned responses - till you have nothing left then
that's true panic! i truely think "dropping the weights" isn't stressed
enough nor practiced enough (if at all) in Basic courses. the fear of
law suits from an accident in training really leaves most divers in a
bad way later.
Viking Diver
2003-11-02 18:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Splosh Junkie
Next time you find yourself, a loved one or a friend, being dragged out of
the water, just remember those who are trained to keep you alive, and
experience adrenalin rushes similar to those I speak of, whilst performing
CPR etc.
Whats so f**king difficult about that then?
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I totally agree.
I have found myself many times after a " shout" to be totally exhausted at
the end of it.

You do try and react/respond as you are trained, but the real life scenario
is different to all the practice that you do.

A resus annie/casualty union "patient" will not die if you F**k up.

All you can do is react as you think correct at the time.

After a real incident you are physically/mental exhausted.
You need time to recover.
You need time to reflect.
You need support whether it was successful or not.

"to err is human..."

Please give some thought for those of us who have to act in these
situations.
We do have to go home at the end of the day and "act normally".

Paul, sorry but a bad w/e on call...
Mike Painter
2003-11-02 18:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slow Death
Post by Dive News
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not
ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights
and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
There are any number of reasons it may happen.
The longer post here pointed out that it takes a lot of training to do it
without thinking.
Divers don't get enough practice in doing this, even with soft weights and
in the old days it was at best simulated because messing up the bottom of
the pool was a no- no.
There is also the cost of the weight belt. No this should not be a
consideration but you hear it a *lot* in classes and shops and it enters
into the equation.
If the diver decided to go against what all the agencies have taught since
at least 1968 and put the weight belt under something it adds to the
problem. If the diver *did* have enough training with it outside and did not
retrain it would probably be fatal.

The California Highway Patrol was among the first to realize that most
firefights took place at about 21 feet. They developed a training program
which included 12 rounds in 20 seconds.
Fire six, eject, reload, fire six.
But they were concerned about money.
So the training went fire six, eject the rounds into the palm of the hand,
place them in a container, reload, fire six.

They modified this when officers in the field did exactly as trained under a
real situation. Fire six, EJECT THE ROUNDS INTO THE PALM OF YOUR HAND, then
stand there and get hit because you had no place to put the valuable
cartridges and had a hard time dropping them.

After a few incidents they started "wasting" the brass.
Iain Smith
2003-11-02 23:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slow Death
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he
could not ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult
about dumping weights and swimming to the surface from 35
feet?
Have you read the article? This was a commercial dive, using umbilicals,
walking about on the bottom without fins on. The deceased had not dived in
years, was using unfamiliar equipment(unsupervised and solo) which he'd had
one hour's training on, was not in sight of his buddy at the time of the
incident. When he had a problem with his new kit, he failed to execute the
correct emergency procedures, the "last ditch" of which was to pull a weight
release situated in an unusual position. That he was carrying 50lb of lead
probably means that even if he had had fins on, he'd have been so
overweighted as to be unable to fin to the surface.

In the mean time, his buddy, who found him in time to watch him sink to the
bottom (in 12m), decided not to go after him.

Once more someone dies because they broke pretty much every basic rule in
the book...

Iain
James Connell
2003-11-03 00:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iain Smith
Post by Slow Death
Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he
could not ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult
about dumping weights and swimming to the surface from 35
feet?
Have you read the article? This was a commercial dive, using umbilicals,
walking about on the bottom without fins on. The deceased had not dived in
years, was using unfamiliar equipment(unsupervised and solo) which he'd had
one hour's training on, was not in sight of his buddy at the time of the
incident. When he had a problem with his new kit, he failed to execute the
correct emergency procedures, the "last ditch" of which was to pull a weight
release situated in an unusual position. That he was carrying 50lb of lead
probably means that even if he had had fins on, he'd have been so
overweighted as to be unable to fin to the surface.
In the mean time, his buddy, who found him in time to watch him sink to the
bottom (in 12m), decided not to go after him.
Once more someone dies because they broke pretty much every basic rule in
the book...
Iain
you point out it was a comercial dive than prove you have no clue what
that means. a "buddy" isn't part of the deal - a tender is.
please keep your stupid/clueless comments about solo diving were they
belong - up your ass.
Kevin Falconer
2003-11-03 00:33:24 UTC
Permalink
I just downloaded some statistics from the DAN website with regards to accidents
and fatalities. If your a member they are downloadable in pdf format. Anyway,
I noticed one chart broke down the fatalities as they pertained to the divers
recent diving, even experienced divers who had not dove in 1 year or longer were
having far more fatalities than those with much less total experience but more
recent dives. It appears those with more experience but a long lay off, had
four times more fatalities than those with say 50 dives in the previous year.
In other words most of the fatalities and accidents were from non frequent
divers regardless of total experience, I think I have this right.....anyway,
it was kind of an interesting stat, perhaps obvious but still interesting.

Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL
Toto
2003-11-03 00:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Falconer
I just downloaded some statistics from the DAN website with regards to accidents
and fatalities. If your a member they are downloadable in pdf format. Anyway,
I noticed one chart broke down the fatalities as they pertained to the divers
recent diving, even experienced divers who had not dove in 1 year or longer were
having far more fatalities than those with much less total experience but more
recent dives. It appears those with more experience but a long lay off, had
four times more fatalities than those with say 50 dives in the previous year.
In other words most of the fatalities and accidents were from non frequent
divers regardless of total experience, I think I have this
right.....anyway,
Post by Kevin Falconer
it was kind of an interesting stat, perhaps obvious but still interesting.
Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL
Now that was inciteful.

Toto

steps back to allow Kevin to take a drink from her bowl.
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